Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails 4

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Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

sundale

(Structural)

(OP)

17 Mar 06 10:29

If recently read in one source to specify the shank diameter and length of a nail so as to get the Z value you think you are. This is supposed to be due to the fact that "air gun" nails are not the same as "common" nails. Another source, talking about diaphragm shear values, said to go ahead and take a reduction for the smaller value of "air gun" nail instead of the "common" nail assumed in the IBC shear tables.

I am slightly incredulous that the typical air gun is incapable of accepting a "common" nail.  Is this true or is this an urban legend?

The IBC nailing schedule is based on "common" or "box" nails.  The structural panel shear wall and diaphragm shear tables are based on "common" nails.  Simpson hardware is based on "common" nails (or 1-1/2" nails). Why would any air gun or nail manufacturer try to or need to deviate from a "common" nail?

Any input on this issue would be appreciated.  

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RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

LIGWY

(Civil/Environmental)

17 Mar 06 10:55

I think it is because when people are using nail guns they are typically not as carefull and instead of geeting one nail you may have four nails in one location.  Then your structural integrety of the wood goes down becasue there is not a much wood in that area.  

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

ronstruc

(Structural)

17 Mar 06 11:07

This is a common problem.  There are a few air guns that accept common nails, however I beleive most contractors don't use common nail. The NDS has values for sinker nails, which is the nail that is most commonly used in nail guns.  Simpson has reduction factors for using sinkers in place of commons.  The  IBC however still does not have an allowance for sinkers for shear values for diaphragms and/or shear walls, it doesn't make a lot of sense why they don't.  Maybe in the future they will change it.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

SperlingPE

(Structural)

17 Mar 06 12:55 http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/UBC/.pdf

Go to similar thread in wood framing section.  There is an ICC report for nail gun nails with design values for shear panels.

Go to similar thread in wood framing section. There is an ICC report for nail gun nails with design values for shear panels.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

2

OkieDokie

(Civil/Environmental)

18 Mar 06 11:36

http://www.apawood.org/level_c.cfm?content=pub_searchresults&pK=overdriven&pT=Yes&pD=Yes&pF=Yes&CFID=&CFTOKEN=

Abutler is correct in the people using the nail guns not being careful. Also a big problem we seam to be encountering is the nails being overdriven. The people doing the work may have the right nail (diameter and length) but the nail is sunken into the sheathing 3/16" to 1/4". There is a tech note on that at;

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

JedClampett

(Structural)

18 Mar 06 12:39

The way it was explained to me is that nails for nail guns have clipped heads so that they can fit them on the feed tape.  The smaller head has less capacity.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

rmw

(Mechanical)

19 Mar 06 14:43

I'd recommend to sundale that he go out and look at a real live nail gun, not just a stapler, and the answer should be obvious to him/her as to why the derate.

rmw

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

sundale

(Structural)

(OP)

20 Mar 06 11:39

Thanks for the input. I already knew that there is a large gap between what the drawings said and what was being built as far as wood construction goes.  This gap just got larger in my head...

It is discouraging to think that one must "adjust" all nail values given in either Simpson or the IBC to possibly account for using sinker nails in lieu of common nails.  I have also seen many overdriven nails in both sheathing and metal connectors.

Incorrect nail selection and nail installation is something that results from poor framing inspections and a general lack of expertise of many framers/wood butchers.  The poor practices are "reinforced" (behaviorly) as these guys do it incorrectly for longer and longer.  On the contrary, is specifying a "common" nail incorrect on the engineer's part? When is common uncommon?

It never ceases to amaze me that upon flying in a W27x84 beam on a crane, the contractor justs looks at it as if it were voodoo black magic how to design a steel beam.  Show most anything, engineered properly, in wood however, and you get nothing but grief and "expert" opinions about how it is wrong.  Any framer with a pickup truck and a dog knows more about structural engineering than I ever will.      

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

miecz

(Structural)

20 Mar 06 15:22

Structure magazine ran a very interesting article about  nails in their September, edition.  After reading this article, I decided to design for sinker nails and specify common nails.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

framermike

(Structural)

1 Apr 06 23:03

Its obvious none of you have ever driven a nail before
maybe you all should work in the field before you start to criticize any ones work

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RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

bjb

(Structural)

3 Apr 06 16:15

I share your fustration with wood projects Sundale.  Other good ICC reports are NER-272 and ESR-.  For something like a Simpson connector I would always require the manufacturer required fastener.

framermike: it's obvious that many framers have never calculated the required number of nails in a connection or the correct member size.  Maybe they should work in an office and accept liability for a design before they criticize the engineers design.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

framermike

(Structural)

3 Apr 06 18:45

I work with some very good structural engineers and they all know how gun nails work and are very familiar with them maybe you all should do some research

http://www.halsteel.com/section.asp?catid=192&pageid=211

here is a link to a nail manufacturer of gun nails you will see a link to a Simpson chart on allowable nails for there product
and you will also see a chart with all gun nail sizes
nail guns are not going away get with the program

and a 16 common nail is a joke you cant nail two 2x4 together with them they stick out the side 1/2 and split every thing to hell
and don't give me the pree drill line if every house had pree drilled nail holes the cost would double

bjbI work with some very good structural engineers and they all know how gun nails work and are very familiar with them maybe you all should do some researchhere is a link to a nail manufacturer of gun nails you will see a link to a Simpson chart on allowable nails for there productand you will also see a chart with all gun nail sizesnail guns are not going away get with the programand a 16 common nail is a joke you cant nail two 2x4 together with them they stick out the side 1/2 and split every thing to helland don't give me the pree drill line if every house had pree drilled nail holes the cost would double

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

OkieDokie

(Civil/Environmental)

4 Apr 06 00:24

Framermike

In when I was 7 years old I would go to work with my Dad, mainly cleaning the job site and carrying material around. In I was working for my Dad as a carpenter. After 18 years of working as a carpenter for a living (28 years plus total), I feel I have plenty of experience to criticize a framers work. I have been working for an Engineer now for nearly 10 years now. You may be right in saying that an Engineers don't know how they work, I will go further than that and say most Engineers should not go out and get a nail gun a start using one. They are by all means very dangerous tools, but you obviously have no idea on what Engineers have to do to calculate for there use and YES, they do know how to calculate for using nails from a nail gun.

One of the reasons I had to get out of construction was it was not fun any more. I mean when you have some punk ass kids that will help a framer frame a couple of houses, go in to business for them self and all of a sudden in a manner of 3 to 4 months they know everything about framing. I mean there is just nothing more for them to learn. By your comments on this post you are striking me as one of those people. You seam to know more about Engineering than the Engineers do. Those type of framers started doing things wrong 15 years ago and now it has become typical framing procedures and you still doing things wrong. It is no wonder that cities are now requiring Engineering on even the simplest framing jobs. We get calls all the time where builders ask for a fix to a problem and there framer meets us on the job and says that he has a engineer that will sign off on it. Two weeks later the builder is calling us with a new framing crew asking for a fix to the problem. I have to ask were is the framers Engineer? It is that there was never one or his Engineer would not sign off either. It just don't seam that you understand that Engineers are held responsible for there jobs. When framer does poor workman ship. The Engineer will be called to the job for a fix, Not the framer. Every thing they do is regulated by CODES. If something goes wrong the Engineer is held liable not the framer. I have seen this a few time and every time there is a lawyer hiding in the shadows foaming at the mouth just looking for a way to sue an Engineer. Lawyers are not trying to sue the framers.

From my construction experience I do feel that some things are over engineered to a point of being ridicules but as I have said before, the codes make the engineer do it that way and you really do not wont to do if different. I can also say also say that that 10 years ago, before going to work for the Engineer I work for, I use to think that engineers were the most over educated yet ignorant people in construction. Now that I have worked for one and can see why they have to do, I have change my mind, I found a new respect for Engineers. With the responsibility that they carry I some time think that some things need more Engineering than they get.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

bjb

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 09:16

framer, you're jumping to the wrong conclusions.  When did I say that I don't account for the use of nail guns? If you re-read my post you will see that I didn't. You seem to have an agenda that is preventing you from reading my post objectively.  When did I mention anything about a 16d nail? I could go on further, but anything that I say would only be redundant to OkieDokie's excellent post.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

framermike

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 09:52

OK
I'm not to good at making my point typing thing out
on an on line forum

what I wanted to say is we use nail guns every framer uses them
and 95% of the engineers I work with calc for them
so if any of you are not calcing for gun nails you should
because thats what your going to get no mater what you have on the plans

OkieDokie
did you had drive common 16 or did you have sinkers or a gun

and the punk kid remark
engineering has the same problems new kids just out of college with no piratical experience sounds to me you all just want to bash framers and not work to get thing right

the engineer is not the only one with liability
so if you think I'm a punk kid with no experience carry on

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

CJJS

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 10:35

i believe more and more nail gun manufacturers are designing new guns that will accept a common nail.
this really is a problem that should have been addressed when nail guns were first being developed.

having worked as a framer for several years, i can also say that there is a generally poor attitude in the field concerning doing things right.  too often framers get too comfortable in doing things a certain way because "this is the way i've always done it".           

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

bjb

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 13:46

framer,

I agree that engineers should be accounting for the fact that gun nails are going to be used. It's a little confusing because there's a wide variety in nail length and diameter.

It's not my intent to get into a battle with you, sometimes it is difficult to get a point across in an online forum.

I have the info for Simpson and USP regarding the use of gun nails and their products.  Without taking a reduction in capacity (for the most part), they allow gun nails shorter than the "commons" but having the same diameter.  For example, gun nail 10dcommon=2 1/2" x0.148, and something similar for 16d nails.  Some confusion can happen because the gun nail mfr's make a bunch of different nails that are 2 1/2" long but have different diameters.
It would be nice if all concerned parties could come together and agree on some standard nail sizes, and if this was reflected in the codes.  The IBC has charts for diaphragms and shear walls that are based on common for diaphragms and common or box for shearwalls.

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

framermike

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 14:37

bjb

if you follow the link to the Halsteel sight they have a chart with color coded nails with all the shank and length on it
airnail has a similar chart you could just copy it in you plans and spec out the proper color or size you need that woul be the best from a framers side

you are all right on the fact that the proper nail needs to be used but some times a improper nail is called for that may be the right one for the calculations but is very impractical on the job sight

and to let you all know the standard nail gun can shoot all common nails except the 16 common it is to long for a standard gun

and the 16 common is probably the only nail you will get an argument about from a good framer

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

framermike

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 14:49

[IMG http://www.halsteel.com/snapupload/colorchart2.gif

RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails

framermike

(Structural)

4 Apr 06 14:51

[IMG] http://www.halsteel.com/snapupload/colorchart2.gif [/IMG]

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